36 Premeds have historically suffered in Organic Chemistry. It’s a necessary class for most medical schools and common knowledge is that it “helps students” in their future careers as doctors. Organic Chemistry, oddly enough, is just a really fucking hard subject for most people. Its a grueling combination of route memorization of reactions, reagents and nomenclature as well as the application knowledge to “novel” problems in the form of determining mechanisms, arrow pushing and application of those memorized facts to solve a problem.
For instance. You know Br2 adds across double bonds so if you give a premed an olefin and Br2 she should undoubtedly get it correct. That’s the kind of thoughtless garbage they wish organic chemistry was. It’s not. Sometimes you get a question where there reaction is a simple alkyl Grignard on acetic acid. Your typical premed will blindly alkylate acetic acid to create a gem diol and…. in a slightly agonizing attempt to remedy a structure which she knows looks weird, she will subsequently do some other strange shit to it… like make some crazy peroxide radical with pirates. They must have missed the part where Grignards are also bases?
Let’s hope they don’t miss the part where NSAIDS aren’t just pain relievers. Lots of drugs do more than just one thing. You combine them together, they sometimes do shit neither does independently. Sort of like an organic chemistry problem? Nahhhh… couldn’t be. That would horrendously disprove their point.
Most organic TAs can tell you the huge numbers of premeds that walk into their laboratory and are clearly not ready to solve simple organic problems and thus should NEVER be allowed to work with living people. They memorize shit, they do that really well. It’s scary, actually, how well some of them do it, but their problem solving techniques really show through on exams in organic chemistry and in the labs. Nevertheless, it’s the position of certain medical professionals that Organic Chemistry is too hard and unnecessary for doctors.
Recently published in the New England Journal of Medicine, Dr. Jules L. Dienstag explores the needs of modern medical students and concludes [second semester ] organic chemistry [the harder of the two semesters,] isn’t amongst them. Dienstag makes a good point – of the four years in school, should so many of them be devoted to subjects of such little relevance to doctors? Which is an ageless question, in reality, that has been asked by students since Aristotle. “Why do we have to know this shit?”
Doctors need to know simple arithmetic – they don’t need anything past algebra. They need to know the fundamentals of biology, you know, birds aren’t people and frogs start out as tadpoles. The kinda shit that really helps prep a doctor. Proteomics may sound fancy, but no doctor is going to seriously care or have need to care the exact structural deformities in hemoglobin when treating sickle cell patients. “The blood sells are fragile and look funny” is about the extent they really need to know. The real trick good doctors play is the ability to take the myriad of environmental and physical clues along with a slightly biased patient history and assemble a diagnosis that’s correct. This trick isn’t usually taught in nursing school, though it’s hoped the nurse picks it up. In nursing school they’re taught the techniques involved over the course of four years. Anatomy, venipuncture, intubation, how to connect people to dialysis machines without bleeding them out and some pharmacology. Doctors, in contrast to nurses, have a pedigree which is designed to force them to think critically and act quickly. Nurses are techs… they need to know only what is relevant to their job, which is occasionally preventing a doctor from killing a patient through ignorance or stupidity. Doctors, on the other hand, are expected to anticipate not knowing the answer and quickly figuring shit out. That’s why you sue the doctors and not the nurses. Little in college prepares you for that like Organic Chemistry, even though, in the end, you will never need to know what the fuck Grigniards do or that they’re bases and nucleophiles or whatever the hell the difference is. Being a doctor is more than just memorizing anatomy, a list of common diseases and their treatments and having some particular technical skill set like reading MRIs or removing livers. It’s about critical evaluation. It just like what we, the proud grad students are doing here. While Organic Chemistry is obviously germane to our undergraduate education, the ability to uncompromisingly recite reaction conditions will not earn us (though it will certainly give us) a PhD. We are here to learn to think critically about scientific situations. We are here to learn how to write and communicate about them effectively1. The fact that we end up being really good at a bench is rather secondary to all that since, in the end at least, a PhD is best served by conducting his ideas into action by management of problems and not by banging your head against the sash of one’s hood. Our skulls simply can’t take that for more than 10 years.
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As a former pre-med student (actually, is there such a thing? Can you really major in ‘pre-med?’ anyway…I digress), I have to admit that I thought this on more than one occasion (usually when studying for MCATs, along with physics and calculus, by the way…). I also went through a short stint in nursing school, which was much more than teaching us to be techs, and actually went through the whole ‘critical thinking’ bit. I totally agree with you that pre-med students (hell, ALL students) need to learn critical thinking skills and how to apply what you know. Yes, organic chemistry does require this, but in my opinion, it also requires that you CARE. The majority of pre-med students I knew (and know) don’t care about organic chem any more than what it will do to their grades. Let’s face it, most undergrad students don’t start figuring out the whole critical thinking bit until about halfway through their sophomore year (sometimes they never figure it out), which is well after the damage is done by the first semester of organic chem. I acutally learned more critical thinking from my various biology classes than I did from organic chem.
that said, organic chem does give a basic groundwork for pharmacology, which IS required in both nursing and medical school, where you learn about all manners of drugs and their nasty little interactions. Pharm is a hard enough class as it is, and I shudder to think of the difficulties I would have had if I hadn’t suffered through organic chem and biochemistry. And remember too, that ‘doctors’ who are brand new graduates from medical school aren’t allowed near a patient without a more experienced doctor looking over their shoulder for at least the first year.
Just some observations from someone who’s been down that path. Thankfully, I wised up…Great blog btw…
I think maybe what would be better is if departments were upfront about the reasons for making premeds go through orgo. Jen’s right. Premeds are not told your exactly spot-on reason for making them take orgo. If they were told, this is basically a big test of your reasoning skills, at least they would shut up about it and understand why their failure at orgo equating to a failure to have a future in medicine ought to be so.
On the other hand, if they were told this, then more of them would actually TRY, and it wouldn’t be as easy a grade for people who really want to be chemists.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!
The one thing that annoys me the most is the “when are we going to use this?” question. My answer is “probably never [in reference to a specific reaction or whatever], but you are learning to think.”
Most students at the college level do not understand that. Some do, most do not. I was one that didn’t. Now, I understand.
org chem certainly weeds a lot of people out.
FOr a doctor, they should at least be able to look at the structure of dna, a drug or a protein, and nod head (yep a nitrogen benzene thingy)-good luck without organic chemistry
The funniest thing I have read thus far about the entire debate is that biochemistry might now be required though they want to do away with requiring organic. Several times I have heard students say in organic lab “I can’t wait to get past organic and get into biochem”. I always laugh at that because guess what, biochem is organic with big molecules. Nucleophilic attack is nucleophilic attack regardless of what kind of molecule you are using.
You hit the nail on the head overall. Organic is not about learning every single reaction. It is to learn thinking skills. The same can be said about calculus. I have yet to meet a physician that uses calculus but that doesn’t diminish the need for students to take it. It is about going above and beyond just memorizing crap.
The other test I give pre-meds is to ask them why they want to go to medical school. The worst answer is “I want to help people!” Look, you are a bad person in general if you don’t want to help people. All too often the real motive is “I want to help people (take money out of their wallet and put it into my wallet…)”
Bottom line: suck it up, take organic, quit your whining, and if you get through organic, good for you. Otherwise, start investigating career alternatives in the food service industry (not that there is anything wrong with that…)
When premeds bitch about o-chem, I remind them that most of them never have to take vector calculus or differential equations or quantum (actually, i liked diffy q, but vector calc can lick my sack). That shuts them up something quick.
I am an organic chemist, I care little for p-chem and only use it in the most qualitative of ways. Can someone tell me why I have to take vector calculus? I mean, like, it’s just way too hard and I never really understood curl and omg my prof was a complete dickhead.
Imagine if I brought this up as a legitimate point for removing vector calc for chemistry majors who didn’t really need it. I would be laughed out of the room. I have little sympathy for premeds who clearly don’t give a shit about the nature of receiving a well-rounded education in the sciences, especially when it comes to taking classes that are wholly relevant to their fucking field. Doctors are fucking boneheads, I swear. I’m gonna channel Uncle Al here and say: shut up and let people more capable of thought than you tell you what you need to know.
And the whole writing thing? God, when I heard that some PIs actually write students’ papers for them, I wanted to bang my head against a wall. But the writing is my favorite part, so I’m biased. Nonetheless, heed the words of George Orwell, “If you cannot write well, you cannot think well, and if you cannot think well, others will do the thinking for you.”
How is it that you could like diffy q but not vector calculus? Eventually diffy q becomes a morass of techniques of how to turn single variable equations into reparametrized multivariate equations, and then starts creeping into the complex analysis domain, which is all multivariate…
Organic chemistry should never be optional for anyone that will be prescribing drugs, IMHO. But maybe the university should look into tailoring an organic chemistry course for the pre-med (or pre-vet) student. My undergrad had an organic for non-chemistry majors that was targeted more towards stimulating interest in organic chemistry and less on memorizing. I think students got a better appreciation and understanding of orgo this way. So what if my doctor can’t draw the mechanism for an aldol condensation? That’s certainly not what I want them to be doing when I’m lying on the operating table.
Though it would be funny if that’s what doctors do while you’re under – draw reaction mechanisms all over you.
Is it just a coincidence that the post about pissed off TAs and the post about premeds came right after another?
I’m a math grad student. I’m currently teaching calculus and I’ve taught two theoretical computer science courses. I’ve gotten the same sorts of questions in all of them. The computer sciences courses were especially infuriating–I mean there I was teaching them techniques for analyzing how fast a fucking algorithm runs, and they seemed to think that the only thing that mattered was whether the bound they wrote down was correct. I mean who the fuck cares how fast *this* algorithm runs? What matters is that you can correctly figure out how fast every computer program you write in your career will run, or that you understand combinatorics to the point where your data structures don’t completely blow goats, etc…
The problem is a pernicious lack of intellectual curiosity. THE PURPOSE of a college education (from the students’ point of view) is to get a piece of paper saying you can “write code” or “do chemistry” or “be a med student”, not to actually be able to do any of these things. I had a fucking biochemistry major who asked whether the definition of the derivative will be on the test. Why would you ever need to know anything about derivatives other than how to compute them?
The sad part about most of these students is that actually understanding the material could make things so much easier for them. The amount of effort one of my students devoted to memorizing every definition, theorem and proof from the lecture notes was incredible. For him, it was like memorizing a document written in a foreign language, because he didn’t really understand things. The worst part: he got a fucking A in the course.
I think you need to relax… Sometimes people need to memorize things before understanding. Not everyone learns things the same way. Heck, even some people have to learn different topics in different ways. Being a math major myself, some topics I could learn by “Aufbau” (like analysis, topology), and others I really struggled with starting from first priciples (algebra). In retrospect, my algebra was really hindered by the fact that I didn’t give a whit about matrices until much later, and my abstract algebra program started by teaching me esoteric stuff like how Z[sqrt(-5)] is a ring but not a factorization domain, which never motivated me to go back and learn linear algebra first.
This brings up something I’ve recently been forced to think about because I will be dealing with it in the immediate future. What kind of PI will I be? After the whole academic interview process and talking to over 150ish different faculty members at similar tiered schools you run into a fair number of ‘paper writers’ and ‘reaction performers/watchers.’ I’ve always been of the mindset that: how are you going to turn your grad students into competent productive thinking scientists if you don’t ever make them struggle to learn to think for themselves. It seems to me that a lot of the faculty at 2nd or 3rd tier grad schools forget that they were at one point clueless idiots as well when they first started grad school. Is it worth it to get little to no useful results from your students the first two years they are grad students if you think that allowing them to f*ck up and figure things out for themselves will make them more competent thinkers and kick some serious ass their last three? I think so. Is it useful for anyone to get steady moderate results the entire 5 years by holding someones hand if they never learn wtf they are doing? I don’t think so.
However, I get comments from my new colleagues like “Well, you don’t know how bad some of the students are” And all I think is are they really that bad or do you never give them enough independence to get better? Is it possible that you’re a bad advisor? Or are the students really incompetent?
Anybody else? Thoughts on this?
I think it’s very hard to implement idealistic philosophies when tenure is on the line. That’s the most useful thing I can say really (I’m only a lowly grad student but no one else answered you so I’m going to give it a go).
Just teach your students techniques and lead on work ethic by example since you’re going to be there 60-80 hours a week and you’ll be spending plenty of time in the lab. It’s true that some of the bad students are really terrible but as an assistant prof, I think you’re not allowed to say no to anyone, as evidenced by a real ‘genius’ that was turned away from other labs and ended up being the bane of my existence for one and a half years before he peaced out with a Masters. If you gave him enough independence he would go to sleep, surf Ebay, and/or poison himself by accident. And not necessarily in that order. We had to watch him carefully when the boss wasn’t in the lab to make sure he didn’t steal and break my stuff, was using the rotovap properly, and was measuring out the Potassium Cyanide with gloves and without throwing it all over the place (and my boss wasted 5-10 hours a week on the guy). It’s pretty clear to anyone people like that are not cut out to be PhD chemists.
It’s not useful for anyone to get moderate results for five years by hand holding if they don’t know what they are doing. But allowing people to learn on their own is not automatically going to lead to awesomeness in the latter years. In fact, it could lead to failure since grad students are not a uniform body that you can create the best student out of if only you use the best teaching techniques and philosophies. They are all different already and some of them are terribly bad and have no hope (or no drive) and some need to pushed the right way. That’s why if they don’t learn in the first two years, they will get kicked out at candidacy. Until then, you have to hold their hands since tenure is on the line. But tell them that you won’t recommend them for candidacy if they don’t become smarter; that should whip them into shape. Threaten them in a gentle and professional manner. You can’t have too many mistakes in a start-up and you’re not their friend.
If organikers must ACS pass 15 credits of piss-ant Bierstube German then all German majors must pass nine credits of organic lecture. Let’s spread the happiness with a fire hose.
Undergrad organic is difficult? Read Morrison and Boyd, understand it, do organic. The challenge is doing new stuff. Half the world hates you for being an arrogant prick, then the other half hates you for being right.
Organic synthesis is life; everything else is waiting.
The following is a list of classes that were more difficult than organic.
- Calculus I, II, III
- Ordinary differential equations
- Partial differential equations
- Discrete math
- Linear algebra
- Analytical I and II
- Pchem I and II, by a fucking blowout
- Inorganic
- Polymer
Whoops, I just listed all of the classes I took for my chem major after sophomore year. How about that? I omitted the classes I took for my math major, because they aren’t as relevant. They were, however, also harder.
I would like to know where I can get one of those medical bracelets that keeps ex-students you know are dumb from operating on you, though. On the other hand, every TA benefits from the fact that pre-meds are on the whole far more attractive than chem majors…no one should have to look at nerds all the time.
I don’t know how well org chem teaches one to think – I don’t think my logic is all that good. Within the context of medicine, though, it seems to be at least somewhat useful – while lots of drugs interrupt binding between proteins, at least some interfere with enzymes, whose effects and susceptibilities are determined by org chem.
I don’t need (and don’t know) how to program for my workstation – but I do have to have some idea of what things will work together and what won’t. In the case of things one didn’t learn in med school, one has to understand something about new drugs, have an idea why they act as they do, and thus what they are or are not compatible with. It seems like not knowing (or caring) how org. chem works leaves a blind spot in the doctor’s toolbox.
This seems like Retread territory.
WTF.
Did you even read the article? Nobody has proposed eliminating orgo. You wrote a huge tirade about a straw man.
People are proposing replacing the SECOND SEMESTER with something more biochemistry related. I liked organic chemistry and I still thought the second semester was useless as tits on a bull. There were a few new areas of theory (aromatics) but otherwise it was all about synthesis. What it sure didn’t have was new concepts or challenging things requiring me to “learn how to think”. It did teach me a lot of new ways to brominate something, which is not terribly useful in the day to day life of a physician.
With that being said I had to do it so they should too. Ha, ha.
Yes. Second semester orgo’s contribution: bromination.
You’re officially qualified to be a doctor now. Please add your name to my list before you go.
With your strategy of a) conveniently not responding to the fact that your tirade wasn’t aimed at the actual proposal and b) giving a trite response without managing to address the fact that organic 2 really isn’t very conceptual at many schools, perhaps you should add your name to the law school list.
Harvard has done/did it that way for a while – the nonchem major track (premeds) took an alternate second semester course (Chem 27) that Schreiber teaches/taught that dealt with more biological applications of orgo. It seemed like a good class to take, even for majors (though in addition to rather than instead of the standard second semester orgo for majors).
This seems like a good idea. My main problem with it is that the “one semester organic chemistry” course at my school was for like nutrition majors and was completely neutered of difficulty. I suspect it’s like this at a lot of big schools. Kids at schools that do not develop an appropriate curriculum for this like Harvard did may present a problem.
Harvard’s orgo was 2 semesters (Chem 17/27) with a lab component for at least the first semester. Synthesis probably isn’t all that useful if you’re going to med school (unless you’re getting an MD/PhD, in which case you’re going to need the chem major classes, anyway), so the adapted course seems like a better way to do, an answer to “Why the hell are we learning this?” for premeds.
Of course, you can lead people to interesting material, but you can’t make them care.
Actually, after rereading the article I posted, it appears to be a masterful work of double speak. On the one hand, pre professional students should take courses geared toward biologically relevant courses. I.E. two years of chemistry and mathematics which is useful in the courses of biology (which is no more complex than statistical analysis and involves no calculus at all.) In essence the argument is that cross disciplinary study for someone going into medical school is better than someone who gets a degree (hopefully a BS) in some science. (ok. I’ll buy it. It sounds good on paper)
Then he states:
Which means that, after you’ve gotten your degree in… premedicine – having insufficient skills in any single area other than human physiology, you can go on and do, what? What if you don’t go into medicine. How’s that BS in premedicine going to look? Hmmm..
I know there are some schools that offer degrees in “Pre professional” subjects. That’s stupid. These kids need a degree in science and they need to get the full exposure of that science, be it psychology, biology, chemistry or whatever and they leave with a degree in science. There’s no shortage of biochemistry in a “chemistry” degree and there’s no shortage of “biochemistry” in a biology degree. Everything you need to know about fixing people will come in Med school.
It’s better that the trial by fire be at the expense of the student before she becomes the intern and not a patient afterwards.
I liked this blog and it brings up an interesting topic on the relevance of organic chemistry to the student’s life post bachelor’s degree. You suggest that the purpose of ochem for premeds is to teach them to think critically and act quickly. If that is the main goal, aren’t there numerous other courses that can teach them the same thing? Maybe even a generic logic course? I teach ochem at a small college and a large proportion of my students are premed (probably 75%), maybe 10% of them may become chemists with about 1% of them specializing in organic chemistry. Why the need to teach ochem specifically to that group of students? It’s because organic chemistry provides them with the foundation of knowledge of how molecules behave. Do Dr.’s need to the think about this consciously in order to be good Dr.s? No. But they still need the fundamental knowledge so that they can build it into more directly applicable knowledge (e.g. biochem, mol bio, etc…). Kind of like how you take 3 semesters of calculus to get a chemistry degree but chances are, if you are an organic chemist like myself, you are very unlikely to think us it in research. Should we get rid of that 2nd or 3rd semester of calculus? I think most would argue no.
When Newton was asked, “Of what use is your calculus to ua?”, he quipped, “Of what use is a newborn baby?”…
The fact is that organic chemistry, physics, math, all constitute a part of having a well-rounded scientific education, irrespective of who you are going to become. The question goes beyond the need for organic chemistry; all the aforementioned subjects teach you how to think, an art rapidly becoming scarce. Sadly many of today’s premeds show an obsession with grades, but not an obsession with learning how to think. That deficit when carried over into their career is going to harm both them and society.
On a more practical note, organic chemistry greatly helps to understand biochemistry. And nobody would be prepared to argue that biochemistry is not necessary to understand the basis of medicine. Tragically today’s premeds often don’t show interest even in biochemistry classes. Understanding of how drugs work at the very least would distinguish a great doctor from a merely good one. Plus, as the fruits of basic biomedical research (rational drug design, prodrugs, nanotechnology-based therapeutics) are increasingly going to be applied to future medicine, doctors who are not aware of these technologies will increasingly lack an understanding of what exactly their prescribed drugs are doing. And I don’t think I would be comfortable with getting treated by such a doctor. I might as well get treated by a shaman whose remedies have by and large worked well empirically.
In the end the question is, “Is our children learning?”. Maybe W would have been helped by an Orgo class. He would have flunked it, but it still would have been helpful.
I used to be pre-med, but I was quickly frustrated with, among other things, the willingness of my peers to “plug-and-chug”.
I’m a big-picture person, I can’t work on itty bitty specifics unless I get the whole damn thing from the most general aspects down. There is nothing I hate more than a professor telling me, “Don’t worry about how that works for this course.” Even if it’s beyond my paygrade I find a general and superficial explanation helps to at least build my confidence if nothing else.
That said, obviously not all pre-meds are like that. My uncle got his BS in chem before getting his MD, though he’s probably forgotten most of it by now. You only need to torment the ones that go into it planning to fail. Even if they strip the org-chem from the MCAT’s, so many pre-meds are majoring in biology anyway it won’t do anything to get them out of the classroom.
Premed: This course is just memorization!
Me: So how do you remember your phone number? By the way, when you get to med school, how are you going to recall the Latin names of the bones of the hand? First principles?
Can someone explain the reasoning behind this pre-med thing anyway? How long does the actual medicine course take? In the UK, one just does a degree in medicine (I think it’s between 4-6 years long depending on the institution). I did study in the US for a year of my undergrad, but I mostly sat post-grad courses, so I never really came across the pre-med crowd.
I can’t explain the reasoning except to say the same applies to law in this country as well. For some reason we have decided that you can major in anything, get a bachelor’s, take a special test, and you get four years of medical school (You’ve already taken the math and science in university).
I don’t know why we do this, but it does weed people out, who eventually find themselves pursuing studies in other fields. I don’t know what the med student dropout rate is in GB, but I would assume it’s lower than that of the US. It would be interesting to see someone compare the systems side by side.
Who? Me? Fuck no, I’ll suggest it, but I’m too lazy to actually do it.
I’ve always thought it was to attract students trying to live a childhood dream. School A offers a rigorous program in basic sciences and engineering, but School B offers a premed degree, design to make you a doctor! As a naive senior in highschool as to the point of college, which would you choose (assuming they tied in US News).
I’m still waiting for my pre-astronaut degree by the way–and I will complain about having to take basic astronomy courses.
You seem to harbor intense disliking towards doctors and their abilities. There are indeed some doctors who like organic chemistry. But one can not learn everything. Diagnosing and treating efficiently is all that is important. Your writeup is good anyway.
I don’t think organic is that hard and I don’t understand why people make such a big deal out of it. As a biochemistry major, I’ve taken all the pre-med requirements just by nature of the fact that they are required for my major, not because I have any intention of going to med school, and let me tell you, calculus-based intro physics was way more conceptually difficult for me than organic. Hell, some of my biology classes were harder than organic for me. I’m taking statistical thermodynamics next semester (basically what our school calls p-chem) and I imagine that will be the same way. I’m not so sure what’s so hard for people about organic–I think it’s a lot more accessible than, say, quantum chemistry. It’s not that math-y, which is where I run into a lot of trouble in the sciences, and why I tend to stick to more qualitative subjects like organic synthesis, biochem, and molecular biology.
I love organic–in fact I’ve thought pretty seriously about going to grad school in synthetic organic chem lately–but I’m not great at subjects that require robot rote memorization. Paradox? I don’t think so. To me organic is all about puzzle style problem solving and working out a logical system (mostly…when you get to some of the more advanced transition metals nucleophile generation, it gets a little crazier, but that wasn’t until my junior year advanced synthetic organic class). I’m good at knowing very detailed information about things–but only after I use it for problem solving, and not if it’s just information hanging around with no framework.
But other than that, I’ve been told by people who are in med school that taking biochemistry was handy. I’m taking biochemistry right now, and I have no idea how you’d understand biochemistry without a solid foundation in organic chemistry, as biological molecules are just large, complicated organic molecules. And as for the argument that only first semester is important…that’s a little ridiculous, because second semester o-chem is all about the reactivity of carbonyls, and carbonyls show up all the time in biochemistry.
“Sometimes you get a question where there reaction is a simple alkyl Grignard on acetic acid. ”
THEIR? THE? I got distracted. You must not be a native English speaker?
You got distracted from a typo? Seriously? O Chem must have been murder for you.
i enjoyed o-chem and i think you make some good points. it always seemed weird to me that more people didn’t figure this out – it’s not like you need to know what a grignard is in medicine, but neither do you need to know most any other specific information in your undergrad classes. if it is important, you will learn it again.
my one problem with your argument is that it falls apart somewhat for non-traditional students. because med schools expect most students to apply when they are 21 year old juniors, the requirements still reflect this. For older, change of career candidates who may have learned to think already, it is mainly just a hoop to jump through.
- another pre-med
Shaman, hunh?
Chem majors and professors stroking their collective egos. Every major has the same argument to prove why everyone else is an idiot. Like usual, everybody else just wants them to shut up and do something productive.
Pre-meds will continue to bitch about organic until organic professors stop teaching to future organic professors. Until then, I guess we dumm old doctor peoples will just keep trying to keep the guts on the inside. Cause I’m just a shaman.